Lisa: Welcome to another edition of Small Business Spoonfuls. I'm Lisa Smith and I'm here with Mason Merrill. 

Mason: Hey, how's it going, Lisa 

Lisa: Oh, good, Mason, I am so excited. We are doing another episode today of Ask HR Support, so we have a real question that has come into support, and I think you're all gonna be really interested in it. We teased it last week, and the question basically is, oh no, my employees are wicked. Now what 

Mason: Yeah, , right So, yeah, this is, it, it, it's an interesting question because it's not, well, you know, the, the, the title of the episode is kind of a lead in to what the, the, the question really is. And, so yeah, Lisa, why don't you get right into what the question is gonna be 

Lisa: Okay. So the question that was posed was, someone says, I have an employee who is a woman and works in a close knit area with other employees while she's been out on vacation. Her coworkers have apparently found a notebook where she has scribbled, symbols that they weren't comfortable with. These symbols were alet and Wicken symbols. And there she has notes about voodoo, apparently, and, you know, all kinds of things. And so they, they picked up the notebook, they thumbed through it, and they saw where she had written down spells and all sorts of things, and, you know, quotes, from the Wicken religion and, and so forth, right And so they brought this to HR saying they're all so scared, and what do we do And they want HR to handle this situation because they don't want anybody casting spells on them, and they don't even wanna work next to a person who practices, the Wiccan religion. And so the question came in, what should I do 

Mason: Right And, you know, people coming to you as the HR person saying, handle this when there's really nothing to handle here. I mean, let's paint the picture, you know, broader in our minds what, like, we, we just have the facts of what was done here. But this person wasn't doing anything to those individual. It was her personal property at her desk that didn't, that didn't have anybody's names in it as far as we know, or anything like that. So it wasn't like a threat of any kind of sort. It was her personal property, what she does with her life. And so, you know, this can be turned into something that is like religious discrimination. Correct, Lisa 

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely. And so the comparison can be made like, so, you know, no matter what religion you are to someone who is not of your same religion, you might seem odd or weird. Okay Right. Maybe you even seem scary. You know, there are people who see, people who are members of, let's just say Chris and do meaning the whole, you know, any kind of Christian denomination. So let's just say Chris and them. So members of Chris and them very o often will wear like a big cross around their neck or have earrings with crosses or will do tattoos, you know, of crosses or, you know, something like that, right And so to a person who's not a member of, of a Christian based religion, then that might seem weird and scary because they, that symbol is not something that they identify with. And so, you know, are there bad things that sometimes happen in a particular religion 

Lisa: Absolutely. And no, no, religion is really exempt from having scary people in it. And so I want you to know straight away here, like Mason and I aren't advocating for any religion, right And we're not saying that you shouldn't be scared or you shouldn't have feelings, you know, based on how you feel. You know, your God that you worship may say witchcraft is wrong, and the God that somebody else worships may say that, you know, Jesus never existed. So like, like it's not just about Christianity versus Wicken or, you know, anything like that. This is about the overall view that the Supreme Court takes of religious and what they call sincerely held beliefs. So if you simply target someone who is otherwise, like Mason pointed out, who is otherwise not causing anyone any trouble coming to work every day doing their job, not mixing it up in the break room, not trying to cause trouble, not coming up to people and like casting spells or saying, I'm gonna curse you. You know, if they're not doing anything to you that would be harassing in nature or harmful in nature, then you should just leave that person alone and let 'em practice their religion, whether you agree with it or not, because it's really none of your business, honestly, 

Mason: . Yeah. There's nothing to handle there that employees come into the desk. I mean, it's actually an invasion of per personal property if you wanna get down to it, bringing this notebook that while the person's out of town and all that kind of stuff. So there's really nothing to handle in the situation. And that's, it's something you as the HR person want to be careful with. Cuz if you have a biased belief to whatever you're, you believe that because it's presented in a way that you like to see it, and this person doesn't present their religion in a way that you like to see it, and you take aside in these situations, you're gonna be pegged for religious discrimination. And Yeah, go ahead. 

Lisa: Oh, no, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off. There have been so many court cases. This just came to mind about Christian oriented, companies and the ownership would say, we wanna all hold hands and pray before the workday begins. Yeah. And so, to people who are of the same faith, they thought that was great. Oh, sure. Let's all hold hands and pray. Let's all start the day off with positive, you know, a support from God and everything. Okay. But that's okay if you're a member of that faith. Right But then the court cases came in where you had someone who was maybe wicked, or maybe they were atheist, or maybe they were, you know, Hindu and they didn't pray to your particular God, and they didn't feel comfortable standing in a prayer circle holding hands that seemed ritualistic to them and almost magical. 

Lisa: Could you draw a comparison there with the way someone might view something you appreciate as being part of your, your worship, but someone else may not. And again, not saying that anybody's right or wrong in the way they believe, I'm, we're not going down that road. We're just saying to you, right, you are right. And to someone else, they're, they're right. Right. Or, and so if they're uncomfortable, you know, that's okay. Yeah. But don't force someone to give up their religion and don't target them and, you know, possibly bring them in and say, so I hear you're wicked. What's going on with that You know, like, what, what are you gonna say to this person They didn't do anything 

Mason: . Yeah, exactly. And, and it's one of those situations now, if they come to you and are casting Hex is on you and you know your name, they show you your name's written in that book, and you're going to, you know, Satan's underbelly wearing the flying spaghetti monster helmet or whatever, , whatever, these, some of these religions for each other, like you, you now, that's something you can bring to hr, but somebody's mind in their own business, live in their own life, you know, whatnot. I mean, you'll, you get in workplaces where people come to you and wanna pray with you and read scriptures to you and put it right in your face and all that. And it's just not the time and place for that. Now, if a person shows interest and wants to learn about your religion off, off business hours, that's fine. But like, it it, like you're saying, Lisa, it goes both ways, no matter how it's presented. And so the best thing to do as the HR person in this situation, Lisa, is to 

Lisa: Do nothing 

Mason: Yeah. Leave it alone. Just say you go put that notebook back and let's pray that they don't have a fingerprint reader , and this is not being recorded and like the whole thing because you and me and everybody here can get into a lot of trouble for what you're trying to do right now, . So 

Lisa: Now, yes, like leaving alone is ex is is exactly right. No, and you know, I gotta say too, if we start banning, you know, wicked books, or if we start banning, you know, somebody, somebody from having a Harry Potter book on their desk because it offends someone, or then we've gotta tell you to take your Bible off your desk, right And we've gotta tell you to take your, your daily, maybe there's a Hindu, you know, daily inspiration or a Buddhist daily inspiration book that you read or something like that. We've gotta tell you to take that off your desk and, you know, so if we all wanna try to appreciate diversity in our workplaces and allow pe allow each other to be who we are, you know, right. Within, you know, reason of course. But if we wanna try to allow that and encourage that, then we can't go and single out someone because you're 

Mason: Not really making any problems. 

Lisa: Yeah, yeah. Who's not doing anything to be singled out for legally . Yeah. You know, so anyway, I mean, I know it's hard and I know people have strong beliefs, especially when it comes to religion. but it could be a situation where if you really don't like, and you feel very intimidated having your desk next to this Wiccan, and if HR could move your desk to make you feel comfortable, that might be a religious accommodation on your part. Right. Without discriminating against the Wcan. at the end of the day though, if none of that works for you, you might just need to go find a new job where there are probably gonna be other Wiccans, and then you're probably gonna have to find another job and another job, . So we need to figure out ways Yeah. That we can all harmonize. And, 

Mason: And 

Lisa: If that's impossible, then Yeah. 

Mason: And while that's your decision, and while, you know, it's nice for other people to share their beliefs in a calm and collected environment, the workplace is just not one of those, it, it's not, your religious beliefs is not, not the place for the, not the workplace is not the place to share religious beliefs. 

Lisa: No. And you know, this, this, this comes up more often than you would think. And I've had people before say, you know, well, I am being approached by a person who is of a Christian religion, and that person is, you know, has told me that they're going to put me on their prayer list. And they keep a list of people like by their computer that they're praying for, and at lunch they will sit at their desk and they will go down the list and pray for these people. And I personally feel like that is a little intrusive, having my name on a list and they're praying for me. Like, like, what is that all about Is that any different than casting a spell Like, I don't know. But you know, I've had people write in and say that that made them feel very uncomfortable because they weren't Christian, they didn't wanna be on somebody's list, they didn't want some kind of, you know, cosmic interference coming from Right. And somebody saying something to the universe, or, you know, or like what, however they perceive it. Right. So we have to, to be careful. Yeah. And we all have to consider each other's position. And again, if if there's nothing to address, then then address nothing. Yeah. Except the person who took the personal property off the desk, that person could be fired, right Honestly. 

Mason: Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And so you, you gotta make sure you're addressing the situation in the right way. And, if there's any accommodation to be made, obviously as the HR person, we want to do that. And if there's nothing to be done, then you talk to the person who has the problem. What can I do to help you if there's nothing I can do to help you, I'm sorry, I can't, like you can't work here. You, you're not gonna be able to work here anymore . You know, so it's, 

Lisa: Yeah. I mean, and we wouldn't fire them because they had a problem with that, but we would terminate them for like a real reason. Right. Like stealing personal property off of another employee's desk. Absolutely. and then that person may just end up needing to leave anyway, just on their own, if, you know, moving their desk or if it's not possible to move their workstation or, you know, some places you're working on a line with someone in a manufacturing plant, and I could move you to the other end of the line, but if that's not far enough away for you, then that's gonna be your decision to make not mine. 

Mason: Yep, yep. Yeah. Okay. Well, I think we covered that topic pretty well. It's just, it, it's kind of a, a back like, you know, we, when we think of religion, we think of God and Jesus, and you know, these different religions where there's, there's, you know, a higher power in places, but like the, there's other types of religions that we, that may not be the most mainstream thing that also can be considered religious discrimination. So everybody's got different beliefs and we have to accommodate for everybody's 

Lisa: Beliefs. Yeah. And I wanna make it clear, in no way have we been like poking fun at anyone of any religion, right We're just making some really what we do on this show, on this podcast is we, we talk about hard topics and we talk about it in a very direct manner. And sometimes that can seem like we're choosing a side, but we're not. And and I, and I apologize up upfront if it seemed like that we're not choosing sides, we're just saying it the way it is. 

Mason: Right, exactly. And if we're trying, we're also trying to have a little fun here, so we might throw a little joke out there, here and there, but, yeah, we're in all sincerity y we're just trying to get the right information out 

Lisa: There. Yeah, exactly. So thanks for understanding that 

Mason: . Okay, Lisa, so what is gonna be our topic for next week 

Lisa: Well, this one's gonna be fun. this is another ask HR support question, and it is my employee stripped after the Christmas party. Now what 

Mason: All right, well, I guess you'll have to tune in next week to find out what kind of shenanigans people are getting into next time. But, , this has been really fun. I hope you're all really enjoying it. If you wanna sound off in the comments, if you wanna share what you think, about these questions and topics and things like that, we're always willing to listen. We might even read some of your responses on the show. So you can follow us at Help desk for HR on Twitter. And, you can always visit our website if you wanna learn about our services we've mentioned before. This podcast is sponsored by Help Desk for hr, so help desk for hr.com. You'll learn about all our stuff there. 

Lisa: That's awesome. All right. Well, like we always say, you can't be audit proof, but you can be audit secure. So get ready for when that auditor or that investigator knocks on your door, be able to answer the question, what made you think you could do it that way And be audit secure.