Intro: to Small Business Spoonfuls Podcast, a late back discussion of the serious HR topics and trends of today, sponsored by HelpDesk for HR.com. 

Mason: Welcome to Small Business Spoonfuls. My name is Mason Merrell, and joining me today is Lisa Smith. 

Lisa: Hey, Mason . 

Mason: And we are back. It has been about a year and a half since we've released an episode, but we are still out here, we're still hustling in, in the HR world, and we wanted to bring this podcast back because we looked at our analytics and we saw that we have listeners still. So we were like, you know, we need to, we need to revitalize this thing and really, really come back and, start talking to people again and engaging the audience and get out here and, hit some hard-hitting topics to talk about to survive in the world of HR 

Lisa: . Yeah, no, that, you know, you're exactly right. And I just wanna, you know, shout out to all of our listeners. You guys are amazing, and, you know, we started this podcast, Mason, when was this, like 2016 or something And 

Mason: Yeah. Yeah. You had started it a while back by yourself, and then you kind of brought me on in 2018. And, you know, I mean, it's, we, we'll go away for a year and we'll look and see all the listens, and we even had somebody reach out to, we did a interview and we, somebody reached out to that person and hired him because of that interview. So it's really great to see everybody enjoying the show and, still enjoying the show and all that. So it's just, really gonna be really fun to bring it back. And I've missed doing this for sure, 

Lisa: . Yeah, no, so have I, I really have. and I'm really excited and also kind of sad about our, our, you know, welcome back topic today, . 

Mason: Yeah. No, and we're starting with a big one here, so it's gonna be, you know, this is a heavy one, and we're not, we're not trying to make light of the situation at all, and we're not trying to laugh about it or, have fun with it or whatnot. We just want to educate on, talk about what went wrong here, right, Lisa 

Lisa: Yeah, no, that's absolutely right. And, you know, you know, you, you and I, Mason, like, we like to joke around, you know, our listeners appreciate our sense of humor, but, you know, we wanna be really serious about this one. And I'm gonna say some things that are gonna challenge you to think, and may sound a little unkind on this episode, but I only mean to teach and to really drive home the message that literally I have been teaching to HR professionals for about the last 13 years. And that is the lesson of personal responsibility and the responsibility of HR and or the employer to make sure that no matter what level an employee is at, whether they're the C E O or they're the mail room clerk, no matter what level of the hierarchy that they play ball, that they follow all the rules and they take it seriously because, you know, you know, and we, you know, we ha we operate help desk for hr.com, and so we get thousands of support questions in, and I would say a big chunk of them are from an HR party of one type person, maybe, or an HR or, department. 

Lisa: And they tell me, you know, we've got a problem with someone in the C-suite. We've got someone in senior leadership, you know, upper management, and this person just keeps ignoring this, you know, request or this requirement, and what do we do, what do we do And today's topic is kind of that exact situation, right Yeah. And, and it illustrates how wrong things can go when we, when we're not all working together as a cohesive team. 

Mason: Yeah. And, you know, in a lot of cases, you know, most cases somebody doesn't die, but somebody did die in this case. And it can get that, that bad if we, if we're not staying on our Ps and Qs, and, you know, that, that kind of stuff and trying to keep things under control. And, you know, the, this is, we're not, we're not out here breaking news or talking about what's what. This is just the facts we've gathered from the case, and we're gonna kind of go through it and talk about it and talk about what went wrong and who could have, what could have been done better in the workplace. And, just kind of to kind of get into it. So, if this does trigger you with the situation, please stop listening. We are gonna, we are gonna talk about the case and what happened and, go through some different things. So just wanna put that disclaimer up there. Otherwise, let's get into it, Lisa. 

Lisa: Okay. So it's no secret we've all heard the news. Like Mason said, this isn't breaking news or anything, but we've all heard the very sad news now for several months about the shooting on the scene of Rust, where Alec Baldwin was playing a character who had a gun, and one of the camera people, a woman, was shot. And sadly enough, her name was Helena Hutchins. And, she died just shortly after being accidentally, nobody is questioning that Alec Baldwin, you know, had an accident here, but she was accidentally shot and died. It was, it was very sad on this movie scene in New Mexico, I believe it was. Yeah. 

Mason: And you might think, how does somebody accidentally get shot Well, a lot of factors go into these type of situations and, you know, it's, it, it, it truly was an accident from what we've gathered. 

Lisa: Yeah. And so what he is being charged with is, you know, manslaughter. And so we we're going to, you know, all have to watch and see how all that plays out. Of course, he's gonna probably go to trial and, you know, so it's gonna all be battled out in the courtroom, all the facts of the, of the situation. 

Mason: Yeah. And the main thing here is what, would require, prosecutors to convince the jury that Baldwin acted with willful disregard for the safety of others. So that's really gonna be the biggest charge here. it, it, it's not that he meant to kill someone, it's that he just acted with willful disregard of the safety of holding a weapon and pointing it at someone in shooting. 

Lisa: Right. And, you know, so we're, we're applying everything that we talk about to the workplace. And so think about it, this was a workplace, this was, you know, an accident that had to be reported to osha. You know, this was a big deal. Yeah. And so, you know, we see this all the time. If you go to d o l.gov, you'll always see the, the latest, you know, issues that OSHA has dealt with, where many times people die at the workplace, and then the employer is brought up on, you know, charges or penalties or, you know, whatever. And they're always, you know, very severe, unless they can prove it was an absolute accident and everything was in order, but it was just a huge terrible accident. Right. So this is a workplace accident, right. And hopefully, you know, this is an extreme example, and your workplace doesn't suffer this, but, but the thing to remember is that some of the, the issues that are being cited here are the same things that you deal with in your workplace. 

Lisa: For instance, you know, this, there was training, there was firearms training, right. And allegedly, Alec Baldwin didn't attend the trainings at first, and then when he finally did, he was on his phone much of the time, allegedly not paying attention, because probably he felt like this was the kind of training he'd been through before he'd been in other movies where he had probably handled prop guns and maybe actual firearms, you know, maybe he owns one and he had been through training. I don't know. I don't know. But for some reason, it appears that he didn't take it seriously. And again, allegedly, and also allegedly, there was no one above him or even beside him, who was willing to call him out and say, you have got to do this, or, we're closing down this set. 

Mason: Yeah. Right. And that's where it starts, right Lisa is the training. I mean, that's day one from, for anything you're doing is the training. I, I write a lot of code for our company, . Yeah. I couldn't legibly put that code together if I didn't have proper training on how to do it. That goes that, and I'm just illustrating with anything in life. It's training. So with, especially in a situation like this, the training was there, and sadly, it was ignored, for the most part. And, you know, Alec Baldwin, he's a seasoned veteran actor. He's been on probably a hundred, 200 sets, huge movies, huge things. And he was just probably like, I don't need this, whatever. I, I've done this before, like you said. 

Lisa: Yeah, exactly. And so in addition to Alec Baldwin, there are charges being filed against the set armor that was ultimately, you know, in charge of all ammunition and, and firearms and all that kind of stuff. And her name is Hannah Gutierrez Reed. And then there is one other individual who is, being looked at here to face criminal charges. And that individual, I'm trying to locate his name real quick, was a first assistant director named David Halls, and it was his job to ensure the gun was unloaded. So there should have been a minimum of three checkpoints. So the armor was supposed to make sure everything was safe, and there were no live rounds. And then David Halls was also supposed to be there as another checkpoint to say, okay, yes, indeed, this is a, you know, either a fake gun or an unloaded gun. 

Lisa: And then the third point was, which was should have been covered in the training program that Alec Baldwin allegedly, you know, didn't pay attention to, was, the fact that when they gave him that gun, he was supposed to open the chamber, review it one more time to make sure there was nothing in it, no live rounds, and then close it. And, and so like, my question is too, why were there live rounds and why was it a real gun Okay, fine. You wanna use a real gun, it looks more authentic than a fake gun, even though those fake guns look really authentic these days. Right Okay. So fine, you wanna use a live gun, a real gun, but then why do you even have ammunition on the set Like, what was even that line of thinking and who was responsible for bringing ammunition to the set, and then in this chain of three people, it was never caught or cared about. Maybe not even overlooked, just maybe they're just so used to doing things a certain way. This is the way we've always done it. Yeah. Which is so dangerous, in the work place. And that's, 

Mason: Yeah. Yeah. And that's something you hear a lot, oh, well, this is the way we've always done it. this is how, it's how it's been for all these years. And, you know, people get so set in their ways and, and, and, you know, I, I hate to say careless, but just straight out careless, and when somebody loses their life because three people didn't check something that they should have checked, that's careless, that's straight up careless. And not paying attention to the details that really need to be paid attention to. 

Lisa: We're gonna see how all of this plays out. But clearly there was negligence, and nobody can argue that. Right. Even if Alec Baldwin says, I didn't put my finger on the trigger, it accidentally fired, which is part of his defense right now. he still didn't check the chamber regardless. Right. And he still didn't properly do the training. And then whoever is above Alec Baldwin, or beside Alec Baldwin in the hierarchy, didn't make sure, you know, maybe they were intimidated. How are you gonna go to Alec Baldwin and say, dude, you're off the set, you're out of the movie unless you do this, you know, and no people, you know, he's a big star and he's known to have a little bit of a temper , and so people are gonna be intimidated by him. 

Mason: Yeah. He's the guy, he's the guy they brought in to make this movie huge. So yes. You know, PE obviously, I mean, it's like, it's like going to your c e o of a big company and saying, excuse me, sir, don't drink that coffee that way. You know And it's like, yeah, who are you talk, who, why are you talking to me You know, that's that kind of thing. 

Lisa: So, yeah. And you know, and, and this is something like, so again, this is an extreme situation, but I wanna, I wanna tell people, like, we're not just sitting here. I'm not just sitting here criticizing people in, you know, this position for not going toward Alec Baldwin and having a difficult conversation. Like, I'm not trying to be critical because I know how hard it is. I will tell you that personally, me, at the age of 26 years old, I worked for the American Red Cross on an Air Force base in Germany, and I oversaw all of the activities at the hospital for the volunteer program. And the base commander was a one-star New general, and his wife was a medical technologist. And in order to keep her license while she was overseas, she had to volunteer so many hours per month at the base laboratory. 

Lisa: And, you know, she had to do the actual work of a medical technologist. So in order to do that through the volunteer program, she had to take hospital mandatory safety training. Right. And we scheduled that training five different times. And it was all because she wouldn't come to training. There was always something that got in the way. And so finally, the hospital commander who didn't wanna take on the general sent 26 year old me who was in charge of the volunteer program anyway, sent me a note that said, you know, Sharon can't come back if she's not going to train. You need to deliver the message . Right. So I'm 26 delivering this message to the wife of a general who happens to be in charge of the Air Force base in a foreign country. You know, I'm over there. I'm like, no family. Yeah. 

Lisa: You know, so anyway, I write the letter and I had talked to her personally on the phone several times about this, several times. And she treated me like a little young enlisted wife, go away, little pest, you know, that's how she treated me, right So I wrote the letter and I said, effective this date, we have this training scheduled, and if you don't show up to this training, you're going to lose your privileges to volunteer at the hospital. And so she didn't show up for the training. And so I wrote her a letter firing her from the volunteer program. Wow. Told her she was not allowed to come back in, copied the laboratory people on it, and the clinic commander, the, the hospital commander, everybody copied them all on it. And do you know that the very next day I was called in to the big boss at the Red Cross 

Lisa: I was called into that guy's office, and they were like, what were you thinking Like, we didn't have WTF back then, but if we had, that's what he would've said to me. . Yeah, . And, and I told them, I said, this is what I was thinking, you know, she should not be exempt from this training just because she's married to a guy with a star on his shoulder. Yeah. You know, and they were like, you know what, we're gonna back you up on this , but this has made everybody very uncomfortable. So, and you know, they were like 50 years old and in their forties and, you know, like whatever. And here I'm 26 and, and en enlisted guy's wife, not even an officer's wife. Right. And I'm firing the general's wife from the clinic. So I'm, I'm speaking from experience on how hard it is to manage up and to terminate up . Yes. You know, in these situations. And believe me, that general and Alec Baldwin, they could have gone toe to toe with each other and they would've been like, equals in their worlds, you know And so if I can do it , right At that young age, I'm here to tell you it had to be done. And do you know that that year I won Volunteer of the year for the entire Red Cross program on that base Because basically because of that bolt move, right 

Mason: Wow. That, yeah, that's, I mean, in, in that, in the hard conversations when lives are at stake, you know, are the ones that are, are that much more important. Every, every hard conversation is probably important to some degree. But when you, when you're holding a weapon and lives are at stake, I mean, li like you, I, in this situation, you know, you can't be intimidated to take care of these things. And so it's really a, a lesson for all of us to jar us. And, you know, we, we see what's going on with this case now, it, people are just starting to point the, oh, it was your, oh, it was you. Oh, it was you. Oh, I didn't think of this. Or I didn't pull the trigger. I didn't do this, I didn't do that. Well, the, at the end of the day, somebody died, you know, and that's, and that's the real is, and that's the real thing at hand here. And somebody is gonna have to pay for that. you know, for for, for that life that was taken. And, you know, we, all of this could be, could be avoided if one person had just taken the right step in that situation. 

Lisa: And you know what I mean Maybe you don't handle firearms in your organization, but like in my experience with the medical technologist, let's just say that she didn't get her training. She did a big goof up in the laboratory that caused someone to get a false, laboratory result test result. And then they were treated with something on behalf of this false test result that killed them. Right. So can we trace that back to her and her checks and balances that weren't done properly because she wasn't trained properly, and then who was in charge of making sure she didn't step foot in that hospital unless she was trained properly Well, that would've been me and the people above me who delegated that responsibility back to me. And, you know, so like, yeah, I mean, you don't know what can happen. Like that was a healthcare situation, you know, that could, may, might seem extreme to go that direction with it, but that is what happens. 

Lisa: And you know, there have been accidents at construction sites and manufacturing plants and the Hershey plant a few years ago had a terrible, terrible accident where a man died. And, you know, and you look back and I don't know, I'm not gonna, you know, try to go through all the details of these specifics, but you look back and you can say, was there a chain that, that somewhere along the way was broken and in at least one spot, in this case it was broken in three places, but yeah. But was it broken in at least one spot And would that have changed the whole game Would that have saved a life Would that have saved a customer's life Would that have at the very least, caused us to survive an audit or a claim against us regarding harassment or discrimination If that's the case, maybe we're not talking about life and death, but we are talking about things like harassment, discrimination, and faulty bookkeeping issues and, you know, i r s tax issues, whatever it is. 

Lisa: If we are afraid to confront the situation and say, you're not doing it right, or your training is not good enough, or you are, you know, you haven't done your training or you know, your attitude is such that you're making mistakes. If we're afraid because we're intimidated by a person, you know, fear of man, you know, whatever fear of woman , then we may be a link in that chain that eventually gets held personally liable. I know a woman, I don't know her personally. Okay, let me back that up. I read a case about a woman in Pennsylvania and she was the sister of a man who owned a, I think it was a staffing agency or something. And he called her in because they needed some help and payroll. And he says, Hey sis, can you come in and help us out with the payroll stuff that we're struggling with right now 

Lisa: So she's like, sure. So she came, came on board for free for six months. She helped him out. She did 9 41. She kept payroll checks, you know, she, she got a lot of stuff cleaned up that they were struggling with because they had lost some staff. And the very last 9 41 that she submitted, she of course filled out the paperwork and signed it. This was back in the old days when, you know, you just sent everything in on paper and stuff. And so she, it was her signature and she told her brother, she's like, okay, it's like $25,000 payroll deposit, tax deposit, you know, it was a pretty large company at the time. And he's like, okay, yeah, no problem. Just go ahead and file it and then I'll to go, I'll take it to the bank and make the deposit. No problem. I'll put it in the tax account. 

Lisa: So she's like, ok, fine. And then, you know, she didn't ever help them out again. He was like, I think we got it now, sis, thanks so much for all your help. He never made that deposit. Mm. The company went under like, I don't know, a few months or a year or so later, eventually went under and filed bankruptcy. He filed personal bankruptcy. He had no assets. A few years down the road, the i r s figures out that this $25,000 never got deposited. Cuz it will take 'em a little bit. Just because you get away with it the first year doesn't mean you're gonna get away with it forever. They'll find it. Right. So they found it and they went down the chain to try to tap the company for the money. It didn't exist anymore. How about the guy that owned the company 

Lisa: He was broke. There's nothing there. How about the person who signed the 9 41 there she is. Found him. Yeah. And she had assets and so she, and they were like, uls $25,000 outta your pocket. And, and so she went and got an attorney and was like, I'm fighting this. I shouldn't have to pay this. Number one, I wasn't even an employee. I was the sister helping out. My brother caused this problem. He ought to be taken stepping up and taking, you know, the blame. Oh, he did not, man. He ran hard. He hung his sister out to dry, sad. And so she and her attorney fought this and at one point the I r s said, we'll settle with you for half, we'll do it for $12,000. And she said, no, I don't owe any of this. And so, and her attorney was like right there with her the whole time. 

Lisa: I don't, I don't know, but that was, seemed like weird advice to me. But no, we're not gonna pay this. So then they keep negotiating. This took like six or seven years back and forth, back and forth. The wheels turn very slowly. But at the very end, the attorney said to her, you're gonna have to come up with this money. They're, they're not gonna go away. And they, and they were, they were issuing, you know, freezing asset letters and all this stuff, you know, after all this time they got around to doing it. If you don't have representation, they will freeze your assets immediately. But she spent a lot of money on this attorney over seven years fighting this thing. Oh. So not only did she have to pay all her attorney fees for all those years, but she also ended up having to pay the i r s the 25,000 plus penalties and interest on top of that for all of these years. They wasted arguing and her attorney went back and said, okay, we'll we'll go ahead and take your $12,000 offer. The I r s said, oh no, that was a one-time offer that's over. 

Mason: Oh boy. 

Lisa: And she had to pay all of that money plus all of the penalties and interests. So the moral of the story here, even if you're not an employee, and even if you think you're a family member or a best friend or Oh, they've got my back, they would never hang me out to dry in a situation. You're wrong. I'm just here to tell you you're wrong. Personal responsibility, which she had when she put her name on that 9 41 equals personal liability. Yeah. And just like Alec Baldwin and the Armor and the assistant director are all facing possibly six years in prison, we don't know what's gonna happen. But that's the sentence they could be facing. Nobody, you know, nobody ever thought, oh, we, you know, oh, we thought that one was doing it. We thought that one was doing it. We thought that, you know, oh, it's not my fault, like you said Mason, no, you will be required to take responsibility just like the woman in Pennsylvania. And just like I would've been if I hadn't made the general's wife get her training. 

Mason: Yeah, yeah. And that's a really good, tho those are all very good illustrations to kind of illustrate the point. And we're not saying that anybody was in intimidated for sure. Intimidated of each other. And that's why the message didn't get across. We're not saying they could all been drinking buddies and gone out and shot the gun in the wilderness and had a great time and loved each other. But the, the point is, the negligence of one person can affect the entire situation. So 

Lisa: No, and and you're right, right. And the reason I use the intimidation thing is because nine times out of 10, that's what they'll, they'll give you 20 reasons, but at the end of the day, they just weren't willing to face Right. That person who they're intimidated by. But you're right, sometimes you're best friends and you know, you're drinking buddies and you know, you go play together and, and the last thing you wanna do is approach your buddy, your good time buddy and get on their case. Well then totally, you're not cool anymore and maybe they won't like me anymore. And, you know, so that is a, an intimidation factor, but, it's still that unwillingness to go toe to toe and face the reality of the situation. 

Mason: Right Yeah, exactly. So, this is gonna be probably on an ongoing thing for years to come on this story. So if there's any, big kind of something that we could discuss again that comes out of this, like some kind of statement or proof as to the them dialing down whose responsibility and what happened. We will, we'll talk about it again, but, it's just a good warning story for in any position in any company. you know, if you, if you feel like you need to take charge of a situation that you've been assigned to that could come back on you, just make sure you're putting the proper training in place and make sure you're enforcing the things that need to be enforced. And really, you know, we wanna have friends and we will all want to have a, like a really nice work environment, but when, when the, stuff hits the fan, you know, people are gonna start pointing fingers. So you really gotta look out for yourself in these situations. And we're not talking to Alec Baldwin with this podcast. We're not talking to, we're not talking to the armorer. Probably we're talking to you as the HR person or whoever's stumbled across this podcast to really make sure you're, you're doing all the right things to make sure something, you know, catastrophic or non-catastrophic that can still cause you, you pain in the future, happens. 

Lisa: So yeah, absolutely. That's all we're trying to drive home here. Like we, I feel really badly for Alec and the Armor and the assistant director. Like, yeah, I feel terrible for them having to face this and their families. I mean, Alex got like, what Absolutely. Five kids or something. I mean, I mean, I feel really terrible for everything they're all going through and I feel even worse for the woman who got shot and died and her family and kids, right. You know, but that being said, nobody wins here. I mean, everybody is in a tough situation. And so again, you know, yeah, we're not passing judgment, but what we are saying is these are the facts. This is what happens when we don't take personal responsibility seriously. And maybe we get a little bit casual and we've done this, this a million times and oh, it's just another, you know, we've gotta take it seriously. 

Mason: Yep, yep. And, and yeah. Anyway, so I think we covered that topic pretty well. it's good to be back. I'm glad, we're, we're kind of doing this again 

Lisa: And we're not gonna be afraid to tackle the tough subjects like today. 

Mason: Yeah, I know for sure. And we want to hear from you. So, you, we will be putting it on social media, but if you really want to interact with us, go to our Twitter at helpdesk for hr. this podcast is always sponsored by a help desk for hr. So we will, be, be, asking questions there so you can follow us there. You'll see our updates of when new episodes drop. Always subscribe. We'll leave you with our topic for next week. 

Lisa: Yeah. Our topic for next week is a question. So it's one of, we have a service, that we do where people can write us in, you know, and ask HR support, so to speak. And so the question that we're going to be tackling is no kids allowed in your home. Can an employer have a policy for at-home workers that says you gotta get rid of your kids during work hours. We're gonna talk about 

Mason: That and if you have thoughts or comments on that subject, where this podcast is released, you can comment and we'll read your comments on the show as well too about this situation. So thanks everybody for listening. As always. Like I said before, this podcast is sponsored by Help Desk for hr. If you wanna learn more about our services, we provide, support que question support apps, data database, library of documents, all kinds of stuff to help you as the HR professionals. So, you can go to our website at help desk for hr.com to find all the good stuff. 

Lisa: Yep, yep. Absolutely. So always remember, no matter what kind of audit or investigation it is, you can't be audit proof, investigation proof, but if you do it right, you follow the steps and you take it seriously, you can feel secure. That's why we always say be audit secure. 

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